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	<title>Comments on: Growth without government</title>
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		<title>By: Barak</title>
		<link>http://www.democracyandsociety.com/blog/2009/10/27/growth-without-government/comment-page-1/#comment-159</link>
		<dc:creator>Barak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 06:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.democracyandsociety.com/blog/?p=342#comment-159</guid>
		<description>Jack,

I like how you bring US development into this discussion.  It&#039;s a good point.  I also agree that while individual self-interest may be sufficient for private accumulation, anger (or more specifically collective action) is necessary for public goods.  I suspect that is why the former is so much more prevalent in developing countries than the latter.

Andrew,

I agree with you fully, I am talking about supplying order.  The market is doing an excellent job in providing consumer goods, but a lousy one at providing order.  My point was that both have a role in the development process as they complement one another (e.g., we are more likely to trade with each other if there is a good road connecting our businesses than if no road exists).  Fair point on being an out-of-towner, by the way, but the locals I asked concurred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack,</p>
<p>I like how you bring US development into this discussion.  It&#8217;s a good point.  I also agree that while individual self-interest may be sufficient for private accumulation, anger (or more specifically collective action) is necessary for public goods.  I suspect that is why the former is so much more prevalent in developing countries than the latter.</p>
<p>Andrew,</p>
<p>I agree with you fully, I am talking about supplying order.  The market is doing an excellent job in providing consumer goods, but a lousy one at providing order.  My point was that both have a role in the development process as they complement one another (e.g., we are more likely to trade with each other if there is a good road connecting our businesses than if no road exists).  Fair point on being an out-of-towner, by the way, but the locals I asked concurred.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.democracyandsociety.com/blog/2009/10/27/growth-without-government/comment-page-1/#comment-157</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.democracyandsociety.com/blog/?p=342#comment-157</guid>
		<description>Whoa there!  Let&#039;s hold our horses for a minute!

You point out Beirut&#039;s crowded and dangerous streets, and say they demonstrate a lack of public goods (traffic lights, law enforcement, etc.).  That&#039;s fine as far as it goes.  But the very existence of &quot;upscale&quot; malls, hotels, anything, in the absence of government, only goes to show that government was not necessary to that development process.  It certainly doesn&#039;t show the opposite.

Then you finish up by talking about the &quot;indispensable role the government plays in economic development.&quot;  But what your example really says is that government plays a role in establishing and maintaining public *order.*  The &quot;chaos&quot; in between the &quot;islands of development&quot; might just as easily indicate that the development is in an early stage.  The &quot;chaos&quot; does not necessarily indicate a need for state-led development.  A nice little slight of hand.

Additionally, the perception of &quot;chaos&quot; might indicate that you&#039;re an out-of-towner.  And the expectation that development should be &quot;everywhere-all-at-once&quot; seems to come from a strongly American viewpoint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa there!  Let&#8217;s hold our horses for a minute!</p>
<p>You point out Beirut&#8217;s crowded and dangerous streets, and say they demonstrate a lack of public goods (traffic lights, law enforcement, etc.).  That&#8217;s fine as far as it goes.  But the very existence of &#8220;upscale&#8221; malls, hotels, anything, in the absence of government, only goes to show that government was not necessary to that development process.  It certainly doesn&#8217;t show the opposite.</p>
<p>Then you finish up by talking about the &#8220;indispensable role the government plays in economic development.&#8221;  But what your example really says is that government plays a role in establishing and maintaining public *order.*  The &#8220;chaos&#8221; in between the &#8220;islands of development&#8221; might just as easily indicate that the development is in an early stage.  The &#8220;chaos&#8221; does not necessarily indicate a need for state-led development.  A nice little slight of hand.</p>
<p>Additionally, the perception of &#8220;chaos&#8221; might indicate that you&#8217;re an out-of-towner.  And the expectation that development should be &#8220;everywhere-all-at-once&#8221; seems to come from a strongly American viewpoint.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.democracyandsociety.com/blog/2009/10/27/growth-without-government/comment-page-1/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.democracyandsociety.com/blog/?p=342#comment-156</guid>
		<description>It sounds like a major US city prior to the Progressive and New Deal eras. Have you read &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;The Jungle&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;? Whenever I hear about development (or democratization), I&#039;m drawn back to what I know about the American experience. Or the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJSMzda4HQY&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Italian&lt;/a&gt; one. You can&#039;t have development without good governance, but it seems like there are two kinds of governance: one for wealth accumulation, and one for raising living standards. It seems like you don&#039;t get the second until people get angry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like a major US city prior to the Progressive and New Deal eras. Have you read <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle" rel="nofollow"><i>The Jungle</i></a>? Whenever I hear about development (or democratization), I&#8217;m drawn back to what I know about the American experience. Or the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJSMzda4HQY" rel="nofollow">Italian</a> one. You can&#8217;t have development without good governance, but it seems like there are two kinds of governance: one for wealth accumulation, and one for raising living standards. It seems like you don&#8217;t get the second until people get angry.</p>
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